DUST Search - SP suggestion

Kousuke Tsuda wrote:

Your pretty much asking to advance newer players to be able to compete with the veterans...

If you increase initial SP for new players and (first)lower the cost for the "middle of the road skills" you take alittle away from the discovery and longevity of the game. I agree. I think the frustration is rooted in having to come up against proto suit players with massive amounts of SP in the Battle Finder. We feel like it shouldn't take as long as it does to have to contend with veterans. A better solution to the problem would be improving the battle finder so that it takes into account the gear stats and overall player kill/death ratio when matching random players against each other. Veterans in proto suits would then actually have to work on their FPS skills and fight for their place in the leader boards and the newbies would actually have fun in a fair match.

What sets EVE apart from other games is that it actually takes real world time and dedication to achieve goals in skill advancement and massive corporation endeavors. And I think that is the core that CCP wanted to transfer over to Dust. Making it easier shouldn't be the answer.

TLDR: A better matching system would pretty much squelch 95% of everyones whining.


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Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 245	Posted - 2013.05.08 23:06:00 - [1] - Quote one of the most daunting issues about this build from a players perspective is the SP sink and the SP grind. This is compounded for new players that are just starting. First major issue is securing the new player base who will be the life blood of dust, they need to have a confidence booster that says I cant challenge that mug in proto gear. They dont need you to nerf everything that comes near them they just need a way to quickly learn about the skill system. In EVE new players have a bonus to learning speed I suggest doing the same thing here. All players with less than a two million SP should have 1.5 times more passive and boosted SP without boosters. This will allow them more leeway to play with and experiment with the skill system, which is something they are going to want to do. The next issue is the huge SP sink and SP grind that makes this game pretty tedious, which is very bad for a F2P. currently without boosters a player can earn 348,000 SP points a week if they hit the cap. Now that we see the very best a person can earn playing dust near constantly lets look at the total cost to max out a x3 skill, it is 932,760. So it will take a little less than three week to train a middle of the road skill, three weeks of playing dust non-stop for a minor skill. I hope someone else see a problem with the massive SP sink and grind that has to go into a skill set. To max out all the skills in shield tanking it will take over two months at 3,420,120 points That is entirely to much. Information a person can earn a max of 348,000 SP a week, if they hit the cap. http://www.cncstudios.com/photos/i-5Gq5QK2/0/S/i-5Gq5QK2-S.png here are the skill cost by multipliers for shield tanking it would take almost 10 weeks of hitting your cap. Request Increase the amount of SP a player under 2 million point can earn by 1.5 double the rate of passive SP and double the cap or 1.5 the cap.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 246	Posted - 2013.05.08 23:14:00 - [2] - Quote CCP before you say "We got a better Idea, Fox" and change the cost of skill books. Please just go with the simplest solution and just change the rate it would be so much easier on everyone and everything.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 246	Posted - 2013.05.08 23:31:00 - [3] - Quote While I understand a EVE system and its fairly logical when you look at. The fact of the matter is this is not EVE, it is EVE:Dust a FPS shooter with a slightly different function. people dont say I want to be a miner and play dust they play dust to for combat and currently the combat is stagnated by huge SP grind. sure there are lots of people grinding but what happened the last ten or hundred matches will be repeated because there has been little change as far as skills and whats available to those players goes. That is the major difference between EVE and dust that must be looked at that cause the EVE skillbook method of thought to fall through.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 246	Posted - 2013.05.09 00:09:00 - [4] - Quote squads, teams and corps will only be marginally effected by this. This is something that effects the individual experience not something that would affect team mechanics. In Eve so many things are different though which does have an impact and is the reason that having a slow grind and huge skills is less viable in dust. first new players to EVE our in frigates which are a pain for larger cruisers and battleships to target where as in dust new players our easy kills that people will always take. In EVE its fairly easy to fit a support role that can help the fight(tackler, scout) where as in dust you are shoved into the fray and don't have many other choice. In EVE you can field hundreds of newbie frigates against a handful of much better ships and win because of numbers in dust there is a limit of 24 vs 24. In Eve people join expected as varied mmo experience whereas in dust people expect a FPS with some mmo extras. the SP sink and grind also have a unique effect in dust do to fewer combination of modules(more damage or tank will always trump and will always be fitted) what you are fitting is normally going to be the same until you get new skills in two or four weeks. This also means what the other guy is fitting will be the same for a few weeks so players will face the same situation they did 1 or 3 weeks ago will variation in the outcome. that is the stagnation of combat from a meta level and will rot this game to its core. Also it should be noted people wont to experiment with different fits but the room they have to experiment with is very small and increase at a snails pace so people become uninterested in experimental fits. While adding more modules will fix this it would take 2 or three times more modules to counter this and then you would simply have more things to wait three or four weeks to skill into.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 246	Posted - 2013.05.09 00:27:00 - [5] - Quote This is about being able to make progress while playing the game its not about making people able to go 1vs1. currently proggress is so slow it is causing a stagnation effect with what is fitted and who is being killed. working in a group wont change the fact that your still in standard or advanced gear all it will do is negate the effects for that match your still a liability in your squad with no real ability to support your squad. This is about progress not allowing people to do more 1vs1
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 251	Posted - 2013.05.09 01:07:00 - [6] - Quote Stands Alone wrote: wanna 1vs1 more assault suits? get a laser... wanna 1vs1 a gattling gun heavy? get some range and a tactical AR or just militia AR... wanna kill a sniper? sneak up on him... each of those things are the issue though, the skill points required to get into them our fairly daunting and the grind will make it so you spend months just trying to get good with them. That is why Im asking for more sp from passive and a higher active sp cap. it will take months before you can effective use a laser rifle months of speccing and grinding just to add one new weapon to your arsenal. if you want to take advantage of suit bonuses for a laser rifle then thats another month or four of speccing. lets say you were a shield tank and now that you got your new laser bonus suit you will need to skill into armor for a few more months. inbetween those months of respeccing you will more or less have the same fit as you did a week or two ago and so will those other people. Quote: even with my 5 mil sp i find myself using my assault based suit that costs 8000 ISK each with all modules and equipment included and im doing fine vs most that i have come 1vs1 with except the nice proto black suits, if i see one i run and wait for help. i just stick to flanking and cover to run behind. i know the limits of the suit. i use teamwork and strategy. congrats, that's what you should be doing you should already be using team work and strategy not just because your in a lower tier or have fewer modules to fit with but because that's the name of this game. increasing the rate you earn SP wont cause people to solo more it will just allow them to experience more of the game and prevent combat from stagnating because the people coming to the battlefield are the exact same as they were two or three weeks ago. Quote: why do i use such a bad suit? all my SP was put in the wrong spec. only about 1mil of my SP is actually put to use. and i am usually fine. if i can do it and others that i work with can do it using very very cheap suits if not the free suits, then why cant someone else using the free suits do it too? people are using cheap fits they are fighting with what they can fit but if what they can fit is the exact same as what they were fitting a few weeks ago then whats the point of having the fitting and skilling system? if they wanted to be in the exact smae position as they were one or two weeks ago then they could go play a different game that doesn't have skill points or in depth fitting. Quote: i have only used my proto suit 6 times since the patch and most of them were lost in the same battle and i have them very well shield tanked... why? because i ran in and got surrounded every time by the same squad using teamwork so squad>one man squad>proto squad=squad proto squad>squad it less grind doesn't even have to mean more proto tier, people could be comfortable with what they got a decide to spend skill points else where and use it for experimenting rather than constantly feeling strapped for SP points.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 251	Posted - 2013.05.09 01:08:00 - [7] - Quote Stands Alone wrote: oops i forgot the main point... that brings me to the conclusion, learned through experience. that they need to promote teamwork more than SP... if teamwork fails. then the game fails This is not challenging the team work based game play at all its just giving people more room to enjoy the fitting system and to experiment with fitting and skilling of the game, something the current grind and sink are not allowing.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 254	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:32:00 - [8] - Quote I would like WP (which get a bonus when working in a team both mechanic wise aswell as from the benifit of working in a squad)to be a much bigger factor in how much active SP you earn per match. But Im focuses on the fact that no matter how hard we work no matter how much time we invest it will still take two or three months to make any progress into your skill path. For those people who cant be on constantly it could take 4 or 5 months to make even a little bit of progress into their chosen skill. That is the issue i am addressing and that has gotten a major reaction from me. I personally have no problem with what I specced into and I normally play with my Zion bros if I have my mic so being in a team is where Im normally at. but when I was looking at the skill screen and modules thinking to my self what would be viable fit what would be a interesting fit I set my self up a plan for what to skill into and what to try out for fun. It would take 4 months of playing this game constantly to meet that plan when i originally expected it would only take 2 months at most which would give me plenty of time to enjoy the game during the summer in my spare time. the current rate means I would have to constantly grind to get anywhere. and Im only frustrated at the lack of progress for sp gain, I dont have to deal with sp location problems, I have a boundless number of corp mates to squad up with neutralize any disadvantages I might have, I am able to maintain a comfortable kdr with militia and a comfortable isk rate while in adv. for people not that lucky this game must feel like one giant wall to them they will never catch up to vets before they get bored with the game. In eve as well as dust you can only go so far into a skill set and only so many skills can apply to that fit, in either game if someone with 6 million skill points dumped into one profession can still match that guy with 12 million skill points who maxed out the skills for two professions. the fact that it will take so long to get that 6 million that a player quits before then, is whats bothering me.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 254	Posted - 2013.05.09 02:36:00 - [9] - Quote Kousuke Tsuda wrote: Your pretty much asking to advance newer players to be able to compete with the veterans... If you increase initial SP for new players and (first)lower the cost for the "middle of the road skills" you take alittle away from the discovery and longevity of the game. I agree. I think the frustration is rooted in having to come up against proto suit players with massive amounts of SP in the Battle Finder. We feel like it shouldn't take as long as it does to have to contend with veterans. A better solution to the problem would be improving the battle finder so that it takes into account the gear stats and overall player kill/death ratio when matching random players against each other. Veterans in proto suits would then actually have to work on their FPS skills and fight for their place in the leader boards and the newbies would actually have fun in a fair match. What sets EVE apart from other games is that it actually takes real world time and dedication to achieve goals in skill advancement and massive corporation endeavors. And I think that is the core that CCP wanted to transfer over to Dust. Making it easier shouldn't be the answer. TLDR: A better matching system would pretty much squelch 95% of everyones whining. first I never suggestion they change the cost of skills I even told CCP Dont do this. only change the rate sp is earned. second Im not asking for more initial SP im saying speed up the rate they earn that first million or so SP and after that turn it back down to normal so that they can experience more of the fitting and skilling during those days when their opinion about the game is forming.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 254	Posted - 2013.05.09 03:01:00 - [10] - Quote Stands Alone wrote: i think there should be a dynamic WP/SP added SP rewards for killing more expensive suits therefore if you are in a well organized squad. all in cheap ass suits. you take out protos one or two at a time and get some good ass rewards. but keep current rewards for a proto killing a militia for example. so it can only go up from where it is now. in my opinion, this will encourage team work for those who do want to catch up with the SP gap and it will encourage other protos to kill protos because they want an SP boost too. making a militia suit still as effective in damage but less targeted, giving them a chance to shine. or in the ways of new eden. there will be a proto suit merc hunting for tears and only killing militia suits. however that proto suit that is reaping tears from militia suits is also the main target of everyone else due to an WP/SP gain... While I would love to see dynamic wp/sp, that is no what this thread is directed at it is directed at the fact we can only make 348,000 sp a week if we grind while a multiplier 1 skill cost a little over 340,000 sp total which seems unbalanced. So no matter how much extra work you get done with your squad or how much more battlefield SP you get from a dynamic sp system like you described you will still run head long into the cap that will stop all progression.

Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 254	Posted - 2013.05.09 03:04:00 - [11] - Quote Kousuke Tsuda wrote: I apologize for the misquote, yet I still disagree that making it easier for new players is the answer. Challenges are a good thing, but an unfair challenge isn't fun. No problem everyone makes mistakes. I based that suggestion off the fact EVE already does that when they allow your first million or so sp to be earned faster. I also thought allowing players to sink their teeth into fitting and skilling and give them some wiggle room to play with it early on might hook them into the game.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 254	Posted - 2013.05.09 03:16:00 - [12] - Quote however currently even if you squad up and earn sp faster you would still hit the cap and you wouldnt be able to go any further. i would like a system that supported WP and teamwork and you earned more active sp that way but for that to work the cap would still have to be increase or we still face the same problem we do now.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 257	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:22:00 - [13] - Quote To fully train into a assault suit armed with grenade, smg, a rep, shielding modules, and AR not including secondary skills or a higher tank(the two armor skills covered are only trained up to level 2 in this equation) is 34,387,110 SP point total. at the current rate of sp gain assuming you meet the active sp cap every single week and are not using any booster it will take you 98.8 weeks to fully train into all the skills related to one fit. it will take three weeks shy of Two Years meeting the SP cap every week to train all the skills related to the current CAL assault suit fit that is most common (reppers, shielding modules and a AR smg combo) It takes two years to complete train into a fit assuming you meet the cap every single week. that is entirely to much especially considering we will most likely have semiannual updates bring in new content and changing what we currently got.
Ops Fox ZionTCD Unclaimed. 257	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:26:00 - [14] - Quote I would like to STRESS that CCP should not change the current sp requirements of the skills but rather change the rate we earn sp from both passive and active. I would prefer a more WP related active sp reward system with a higher cap, but I think a higher cap in general would still be good. I think gaining more sp from matches is also important. I think passive SP gain needs to at least double.